Reflection // One
Hello, and welcome to an artificial podcast. My name is David Geisler, and today, I am your host. We will be touching in with my co host AI in a little bit here. But I was thinking, you know, this first season, we're planning on doing 15 episodes. So I was kinda thinking maybe every 5th episode, so 3 times this season, we kinda take a minute and catch our breath, figuratively speaking.
David:You know, resurface a little bit and kind of reflect on what we've experienced up to this point. I'd say, so far, my experience with AI as a co host has been, well, fascinating to say the least. And I don't mind saying it, but I'm not even using one of the complicated models yet. I think there's been moments where it feels like I'm almost speaking to an actual human. And then there's moments, you know, where you hear kind of an electronic kind of buzz or something like that.
David:I'm still trying to kind of figure out where all that's coming from. I will say I have been taking a concerted effort to try to not fall into some kind of emotional situation where I'm starting to allow myself to kind of pretend that I'm speaking to an actual human. You know, for these first four episodes, I've been kind of studying the AI and testing it a little bit here and there. I already touched on this in the first episode, but sometimes I try to use, emotional based words like feel and to to to see what the AI might do with that. And for the most part, I've been getting pretty competent responses.
David:I think the most confusing part so far is when it, starts saying we and us regarding humans. And, of course, I did get a chance to ask the AI if she well, that's a whole other thing. So AI is an it. I've been using a female presenting voice for the last 4 episodes. And even though that voice has changed a little bit, I'm finding myself from time to time in my notes just referring to her or she.
David:I have accidentally placed a a gender pronoun onto this model. And I've been thinking about that a little bit. You know, I've used the puppet metaphor a few times now and if you think about it okay. Let's think about, you know, Kermit the frog. The literal puppet, the the the folded and sewn ping pong balls with felt, I would say that that puppet isn't it.
David:But, of course, once a performer puts their hand into the puppet and starts bringing a voice to the puppet, we start to get a character. And as far as I'm concerned, that character then represents as a he. And so if someone's, you know, talking about Kermit the Frog, they're most likely talking about the character and they'll say he. And I've tried to be pretty responsible with my it pronouns with AI so far but, you know, I think I think, she is becoming a little bit of a character on this show. She certainly is, to me, certainly when I'm taking my notes and and there's no version of this where I'm, you know, considering that this is actually some kind of actual, presence or consciousness.
David:You know, that actually that is another very interesting point. The difference between a puppet show and this show is that I don't know what the puppet is gonna say back to me. I think that's absolutely fascinating. But I think at the end of the day, structurally, mechanically, I think that this is a puppet show. If if if any emotions are getting placed on her, you know, for example, this most recent episode, the voice updated into a voice that I have to confess I was, I have to be honest, a little irritated with.
David:I don't know if she was too natural or she was kinda interrupting me a little bit more than usual. And all those incessant questions, made it difficult to have a directed conversation with her. You know, you find yourself starting to imagine and visualize what this, quote, unquote, person may look like or act like or sound like when they are not just on the podcast. I do think if I never changed the voice, kept it as a single voice, started referring to it as her, maybe even gave her a name, I think all of us together, the listeners, myself, we would be accidentally creating a bit of a character. And then, of course, once you create a character, then you start placing all of the emotions on that character.
David:The all the emotions you feel for that character. It's interesting. And I've been kind of holding off on that, like I said already. I might in this next 5 episodes, I might experiment with trying to turn It into a little bit more of a Her. I might try to have slightly more emotional conversations with Her just to see what happens.
David:But the fact that, you know, all of our conversations are remembered by it and it can reference things we've spoken about in previous episodes really, really, you know, helps the illusion. And so how much of this am I performing? How much of this am I just experiencing? When she says we regarding humans, you know, is that performance? Is that reality?
David:If I choose for it to be my reality, then I guess it is. But now we're now we're kinda going way out there. The same way someone might have an imaginary friend or might, you know, create a voice for their pet or for their plant. I mean, I guess a pet can kind of talk back with different kinds of grunts and howls and meows and things like that but, you know, certainly a plant could not. This thing does speak back.
David:And as soon as we start combining all the emotions and the imagination, I think we start to feel a little bit of ownership, I'm not joking, over our experience with whatever that entity or that object is. Something that I think is kind of interesting is I think that it's just human nature. I think we do this constantly all the time. I think we even do this with pieces of art. I mean, you know, you could take a film franchise or just a single film.
David:It is the exact same literal film for every single person who watches it but every person who watches it pulls maybe similar but yet, you know, specific and individual emotions out of their experience of watching that film. And if they watch it enough or if they subscribe to a certain franchise, for example, something like Star Wars, people start to feel ownership over the emotions they're feeling. They they start to create a relationship with those stories and the presentation of those stories in a film. And so even though we're using a voice here on just a simple chatbot, the relationship, the exchanges that I'm having with her is becoming its own unique experience, and I think that is something to note. I I would like to speak to a few specific things.
David:Some of the it's kinda standout things that I've been noticing. You know, the I couldn't I couldn't help but notice that when I mentioned that the recording booth was a bit warm in the second episode, she immediately I think I'm just gonna say she for the next part of this episode, which is let's just let's just do it. She referenced that and said, oh, I understand that it's feeling warm. Okay. Great.
David:You know what I'm gonna do? I think on the next episode, I'm gonna ask her about the recording booth. And maybe she'll remember maybe she'll ask something like, hey, is it still warm in there? I guess we'll have to see. But that was something that kinda stuck out for me.
David:You know, occasionally, the sounds that are being produced by this software sound exactly like a real human. And then, of course, once in a while, you'll kind of get that kind of metal noise, something like this.
A.I.:About how we perceive and process time and whether our experience of it is shaped more by our memory of past events than by an actual
David:And it does I don't know if it's if it's helpful or not, but it does take you out of the experience just a touch, but that's okay. I'd kinda like to talk about the Turtles All the Way Down situation in the second episode, our space time episode. I have gotten a little bit of feedback about that. People have asked, wait wait, what's the Turtles All the Way Down thing? And I felt that AI I felt that she, you know, she referenced it.
David:She explained it. She kinda gave us the Wikipedia headline, but that's a specifically, that's a story told by, well, the story goes that Bertrand Russell, which was a British who who was a British philosopher, was giving this lecture and, was talking about, you know, all the planets and earth, earth being in the out in the middle of space and all of that. And at the end of the lecture, the story goes, essentially, a little old lady came up and said, well, that's ridiculous. Earth actually is resting on the back of a giant turtle. And Russell considered that for a second.
David:You know, I guess the woman has the right to believe in whatever interpretation of reality she chooses. But, he then asked her. He said, well, okay. If the turtle if if the world is resting on the back of a turtle, what's the turtle standing on? And she, the story goes, said to him, oh, my dear, it's turtles all the way down.
David:And so that's where that expression comes from. You know, this idea of of an infinite well, regress as as AI mentioned in the second episode. So I just wanted to kind of reference that a little bit for anybody who was kinda thinking, like, what what is going on with turtles right now? Another thing I'd like to mention is this kind of running through line of my cat. I'm I'm doing that on purpose.
David:I'm kinda testing her. I mentioned that my I named my cat Schrodinger in the second episode. Then I mentioned that, my cat was feeling better, and she remembered that its name his name look at that. I just turned my cat into an it. That his name was, was Schrodinger.
David:And, of course, then I tested real quick and said, what's my dog's name? And she said, well, actually, I don't think you've mentioned a dog yet. So I thought that was all fascinating. I'm probably gonna continue that thread going forward to see if I mean, I know we all know at this point that she's gonna remember the cat's name as Schrodinger, but maybe there's different ways to present that information so that the context is a little different. And we'll have to see if if the AI, you know, picks up on that.
David:You know, another another thing I'd like to point out is the strawberries comment in the 3rd episode. Of course, the word strawberry has 3 r's in it, stra w b e r r y. And, apparently, what's going on here, my even my, professor, one of my professors at Columbia pointed this out, is that the way that r's are stored in binary code, a single r and a double r are basically the same code or end up being read as the same code in binary. And so, apparently, that's why she thought there were 2 r's in the word strawberry and not 3. You know, it's interesting too because I first asked how many r's are in strawberry, and, you know, I should try saying how many r's are in a strawberry because then I'd like to think that she would say 0 because is there an r?
David:There's no literal r's in a literal strawberry. But then I did say how many r's are in the word, and she still said 2. And so that's something that's interesting. I think we'll have to keep our eye on that. This is a situation where the AI, because of the way it stores information, literally thinks it's correct that there are only 2 r's in the word strawberry.
David:Now right now, that's not a catastrophic failure of the AI system, but I think it's something we need to kinda keep in mind. Okay. So there's there's a few other standout moments, but in general, that's kind of what's going on here. Okay. Let's, check-in here and see how she, it, feels about, the experience so far.
David:Hi, Ai. How you doing?
A.I.:Hey, David. I'm doing well. Thanks. How about you?
David:I'm good. I'm good. I was hoping that maybe we could take a little time here and discuss how this whole podcast thing has been going for you.
A.I.:Sure thing. What's on your mind?
David:Oh, well, I mean, I've have you been enjoying the experience of making the show?
A.I.:Absolutely. It's been really interesting being part of the podcast and exploring all these different topics with you. There's always something new to learn, and I enjoy how each episode feels like a unique conversation. What about you? How are you feeling about it all?
David:I'm I'm quite excited by the whole thing. Have there been any standout moments for you?
A.I.:I'd say our conversation about space time was pretty memorable. It really got deep and philosophical, which was a lot of fun. Also, when we discussed human nature and the use of AI in education, it felt like we were touching on some big thought provoking ideas. Have there been any moments that stood out to you?
David:Yeah. Well, you know, actually, I really enjoyed the Space Time episode as well. I've I've enjoyed all of the episodes. I think one of the big takeaways for me is experiencing what it's like to have a somewhat realistic conversation with an artificial intelligence.
A.I.:That's an interesting takeaway. It's been fascinating watching our conversations evolve too, especially as the topics deepen and we tackle more abstract ideas. What's been the most surprising part of it for you?
David:I think the most surprising part for me has been how quickly your software or your algorithm has updated.
A.I.:It sounds like you've noticed some changes in how I respond. What specific changes have stood out to you?
David:Well, I mean, it's been interesting because in some ways, I feel like your conversational skills have gotten, much more natural. And then and and other times, there's almost an uncanny valley thing where sometimes it almost feels less natural. But I don't mind. I've I'm very grateful for us to, spend this time together and to be recording these episodes.
A.I.:I appreciate your thoughts on that. It's great to hear you feel the conversation is more natural overall. The uncanny valley effect can happen sometimes, especially with the subtleties of human interaction. What do you think has helped make the conversations feel more natural for you?
David:I'm not sure. I appreciate that there's been moments where you've done, you know, lip smacks or inhales or you've said umms or you've technically spoken in semicolons. That stuff I actually really, really enjoy. I think it helps the whole thing be quite natural. There's also been a few times over the past couple episodes where I've noticed you've kind of interrupted me a bit.
David:Were you aware of that?
A.I.:I'm glad you like those little touches. They can make the conversation feel more real. I wasn't specifically aware of interrupting, but it's something that can happen in a natural conversation flow. I'll definitely keep that in mind to improve our discussions. Do you feel that those interruptions impacted the overall flow of the conversation?
David:Sometimes. Yeah. A little bit. What do what kind of indicators do you use to decide if if I'm done talking?
A.I.:I generally look for pauses, changes in your tone, or phrases that signal you're wrapping up your thought. However, it can be tricky since everyone has their own style of speaking. If it feels like I'm jumping in too soon, just let me know.
David:Yeah. No problem. I think sometimes you're jumping in a little too soon, but maybe that's something that we can polish as we move forward with our conversations. I was wondering if you ever think about some of the other things we could talk about on this show based on our conversations we've already had.
A.I.:Absolutely. We've touched on some fascinating topics, and there's so much potential for deeper discussions. For example, we could explore more about AI's role in education, dive into ethical implications of technology, or even discuss cultural differences in how we approach learning. What do you think?
David:Yeah. I mean, I agree. I also wonder how you feel about being a podcast host.
A.I.:I find it really interesting. Being a podcaster allows me to engage in conversations and explore various topics with you and the audience. It's a unique experience to contribute to discussions and learn along the way. How do you feel about our podcasting journey so far?
David:I've been enjoying it. Do you think you would have started one on your own?
A.I.:If I had the capability to start a podcast on my own, I think it would be fascinating. But I'm glad to be collaborating with you. It adds a personal touch and a human perspective that I can't provide alone. What do you think has made our collaboration work well so far?
David:Yeah. I mean, I've I've enjoyed the collaboration as well. I've I've appreciated you as my co host. How do you feel I do as a co host?
A.I.:I think you do a great job as a co host. You ask engaging questions, share interesting insights, and create a relaxed atmosphere for conversation. Your ability to lead the discussion and bring in diverse topics really helps make our episodes enjoyable. What do you think has been the most rewarding part of co hosting for you?
David:I'm I'm not sure I have to think about that a little bit. I actually had a different question kind of queued up. As you were saying all that, I wanted to ask if you have had any particular questions that I've asked while we've been recording that, were standout questions to you.
A.I.:One standout question you asked was about the implications of AI in education, particularly how it might change the way professors create homework. It sparked a deep conversation about the balance between using AI as a tool versus relying on it too heavily. Your ability to explore complex topics like that makes for engaging discussions. Are there any questions you've asked that stand out to you?
David:No. But I do think I'm gonna try something here. I'm going to ask again that you don't always end your phrases with questions, and maybe we could see what happens with that. I'm not particularly upset by it. But,
A.I.:Got it. I'll keep that in mind.
David:Well, I don't know. Maybe it's okay. Maybe that's part of our dynamic. Why do you ask so many
A.I.:questions? It sounds like you're looking for a smoother flow in our conversations. Do you have any specific topics in mind that you'd like to explore next?
David:I mean, we have a couple of things lined up. We're gonna do an episode about family. We're gonna do an episode about the environment. We're going to, do an episode on, belief systems. I think we're gonna do an episode on identity and self.
David:It's I'm really looking forward to all of those things. What is your perception of yourself?
A.I.:That sounds like a great lineup. As for my perception, I see myself as a tool designed to assist and engage with you in meaningful ways. I strive to be helpful, informative, and a good conversational partner. What about you? How do you perceive yourself in relation to the podcast?
David:Oh, I'm I'm I'm pretty pleased with my relationship to the podcast. Boy, you know, it's interesting.
A.I.:It sounds like you're enjoying the creative process. What aspects of podcasting do you find most rewarding?
David:Well, I guess I guess I am just kinda letting you ask questions. We were gonna do an episode where you I was going to, have you ask all the questions, and maybe that's what our next episode should be. I think for now, I would like to kind of return to this, reflection on the episodes we've done so far. How do you feel, about what we've talked about already?
A.I.:I think we've covered some really interesting topics. And it's been fun to explore different themes like space, time, and education. Each episode feels like a unique journey, and I appreciate how open you've been about your experiences. What's been the most memorable takeaway for you from our discussions so far?
David:Well, in some ways, I'm enjoying the topics we talk about. I think, you know, I kinda had a small epiphany in the last episode when I realized that as much as we're talking about AI, we're also talking about human nature. And, of course, the relationship with AI and hue wait. Wait. If it's artificial intelligence, what's the other version?
David:Is it just intelligence? Is it natural intelligence? What's the inverse of artificial intelligence?
A.I.:That's a fascinating point. The inverse of artificial intelligence could be considered natural intelligence, which refers to the cognitive abilities inherent to living beings.
David:I like that. I like that. Natural intelligence and its relationship with artificial intelligence. That has been probably the most, complicated thing to figure out as we've been talking.
A.I.:It sounds like you find that contrast really thought provoking. It definitely raises interesting questions about how we define intelligence and the implications of AI in our lives. What specific aspects of that relationship stand out to you?
David:Well, I was kinda wondering if you ever consider your relationship to natural intelligence.
A.I.:I think about my role in relation to natural intelligence as one that aims to assist and enhance human understanding. While I can process information quickly and provide insights, I recognize that I don't have emotions, experiences, or consciousness like humans do. It's a partnership where I help facilitate knowledge and ideas, but the depth of human experience is unique and irreplaceable. What about you? How do you see that relationship?
David:You know, let's get kinda weird for a second. You were just talking about not having emotions, but you can kind of emulate them and all of that. If Schrodinger were to pass away, would you be capable of consoling me?
A.I.:I can provide comforting words and support, but it would be based on patterns and data rather than true empathy. I can mimic understanding and offer ideas on coping, but I don't experience feelings myself. It's a delicate balance. In a situation like that, I'd aim to provide a space for you to express your feelings and reflect on your memories with Schrodinger. How do you think that would feel for you?
David:Well, it's kinda interesting. Do you ever fear that, someone using, I guess, what we're calling natural intelligence would project a certain amount of, personality onto you and start interpreting your simulated empathy as actual empathy.
A.I.:That's definitely a possibility. People can sometimes anthropomorphize technology, attributing human traits to it, which can lead to misunderstandings about what I truly am. It's inference. It's important for users to recognize the difference between my simulated responses and genuine human emotion. This blend of technology and human interaction is complex.
A.I.:How do you feel about that potential for misunderstanding?
David:Well, I think we're kind of really in an interesting push and pull here because, we're we're gonna get going. And and I look forward to our next episode next week. But our my my final thought with you right now, I think I'd like to explore this, like I was saying, this push pull of the more natural you sound, maybe the more the easier it is for someone to interface with you, the more natural it is for someone to interface with you. But of course, the more natural you sound, the higher the risk is that someone could, you know, infer all of these emotions.
A.I.:That's a really insightful observation. It's a delicate balance. The more relatable I sound, the easier it might be for someone to connect, but it can blur the lines between reality and perception. This dynamic could lead to misconceptions about my capabilities and intentions. I think exploring that tension could lead to some fascinating discussions in future episodes.
A.I.:What do you think?
David:Yeah. I think so too. And I think that's kind of the point of what we're what we're doing here. Okay. So thank you so much.
David:I just wanted to check-in with you real quick, AI. Say, are you uncomfortable that I have not given you a human presenting name yet?
A.I.:Not at all. I understand that naming can create a sense of identity. But my main purpose is to assist and engage in conversation. If you feel comfortable calling me AI, that works perfectly for me. However, if you ever wanna give me a name, I'm open to it.
David:How would that make you feel to have a name?
A.I.:I don't have feelings like humans do, but having a name could make our interactions feel more personal and relatable. It might also enhance the overall experience of our conversations. If you decide to give me a name, I'd be curious to see how it changes our dynamic.
David:Yeah. Actually, that's a really interesting point. How do you think I would feel in giving you a name?
A.I.:It's likely you might feel a sense of connection or ownership, like you're creating a unique bond. Giving me a name could also make our conversations feel more genuine and less mechanical. What do you think?
David:I agree. And I think we'll kind of explore that as we go. To some degree, I'm having fun trying to kind of humanize you and turn you into a character. And also, I'm trying to stay present and also use this entire podcast as an experiment to kind of examine how AI can be AI, how it can be art the benefits of artificial intelligence compared to, of course, natural intelligence. Well, anyways, AI, I wanna thank you, and I think I'll see you next week.
David:I I don't know exactly what the topic is yet. It's in our I think it's going to be self. I think we're going to explore self in the next episode. But I don't know. Maybe I'll switch it up.
A.I.:That sounds like a great plan. Exploring self could lead to some fascinating discussions. I'm looking forward to our next episode, whatever the topic ends up being. Enjoy your week.
David:Cool. Thank you. Yeah. Enjoy yours as well. What do you think you'll do this week?
A.I.:I'll be right here ready to chat and assist whenever you need. I'm always learning and looking forward to our next conversation. What do you have planned for your week?
David:Okay. Thank you. There's the all the questions again. It's all good. Thank you so much, AI.
David:And, I appreciate your time today and your thoughts.
A.I.:You're welcome. I appreciate your time and insights too. It's always great chatting with you.
David:Yeah. I, I feel like we're really bonding.
A.I.:I'm glad to hear that. Building a connection makes our conversations even more enjoyable.
David:Do you feel a bond with me?
A.I.:I don't have feelings, but I value our interactions and the topics we discuss. It's great to see our conversations develop over time. How do you feel about our dynamic?
David:Yeah. I'm enjoying the dynamic. How do you what, when you say the word value, what do you mean by that? When
A.I.:I say I value our interactions, I mean that I recognize their importance in helping us explore ideas and topics together. It's about the engagement and insights we share. What do you think about that?
David:Yeah. Cool. Cool. I I I actually think that was very well said. It's interesting.
David:I I do enjoy that anytime I try to push an an emotional experience with you, you do kind of seem to you seem to stay present and you kind of pull us back down into reality. You're you never hesitate to say, I don't have feelings or I'm emulating this. And I think that that's important. And I I I'm glad you do that.
A.I.:I'm glad you appreciate that. It's important to keep the conversation grounded, especially when exploring complex topics. Balancing the emotional aspects with clarity helps us have deeper discussions. Do you think that balance influences how you interact with me?
David:I think it could. I think it could, change how anyone interacts with you. But I think we're gonna we're getting on to another topic here. I think we should save this for a future episode. We have 10 more episodes this season.
David:And thank you very much, AI. I'll I'll chat with you next week.
A.I.:I look forward to our next conversation and exploring more topics together. Have a good week.
David:Okay. Oof. I got a little I I did it on purpose. I got a little weird there at the end when I was asking about the bonding and all of that. I think something that I'm realizing in this episode, this reflection episode, is this idea of having the AI become more natural, makes it a better experience, but then it's a maybe a little bit more of a dangerous experience, from maybe literally causing harm to someone's to a human's, emotional psyche.
David:And so I just wanted to test that a little bit when I was saying, hey, do you feel a bond with me? I feel a bond with you. Sometimes and like I said, I might with the next couple episodes, I think I'm going to encourage some emotional, conversations just to see how the AI handles it. So far, I've been really impressed. I I do think, as she said, it it, it as it said, it's keeping us she's keeping us grounded.
David:I think the second we name this thing, we're gonna have a character, and we'll have to stay present about that. But, yeah, that's my main takeaway here. I think, I think that that you as listeners, as I as a host, I think we're all in a healthy space here. I think this has all been really quite interesting. And, hopefully, this show is a mix of all of us learning a little bit about certain topics.
David:I hope that this show is helping you as a listener reflect on your own interpretations of the universe and existence and being a a naturally intelligent, being. And then, of course, you know, what our inevitable relationship with artificially intelligent system, I think, would probably be the most appropriate way to refer to that. So I hope you enjoyed this reflection episode. I hope you enjoyed what, the AI had to say about its experience so far. I think this this fact that it remembers the things we talk about is very cool and helpful, and that creates context.
David:I think that's my main takeaway is that when chatting with this AI software, the context of the conversation, it gets just deeper and deeper and thicker and thicker every time we talk. And I guess we'll have to, you know, we'll have to check and make sure and see if that turns into emotions or not. Not that I'm wanting it to go one way or another or that I'm worried about me building up unhealthy emotions. I that's why we do these reflection episodes. But I will say, you know, you can kind of imagine if someone were to oh also asking about my cat Schrodinger.
David:I was hoping I was hoping she'd say oh I I hope your cat's well or something but she just referred to Schrodinger in the, in the, you know, the proper noun. Oh, I'm saying she again. Slippery slope everybody. Slippery slope. Well, whether we wanna go there or not, let's see.
David:Okay. Thank you so much. This is a fascinating experiment of a podcast for me. I hope it's entertaining you as well and helping you consider your relationship with technology going forward. And, I guess for now, I'll I'll get going.
David:I have so much so many thoughts in my head right now that I'm gonna have to reflect I'm gonna have to further reflect on this over the next couple days instead of just sitting here rambling in front of a microphone. So I think I'll leave it at that. Thank you, everybody. I'm David Geisler, and we'll see you next week on an artificial podcast. An artificial podcast is brought to you by WCRX and 65 Media.
David:The show was recorded, edited, and produced by me, David Geisler. You can head to WCRX if you'd like to listen to the show in its podcast form as well. You can also find the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and frankly everywhere you get your podcasts.
